Thursday, June 03, 2010

Israel, Gaza, Warsaw Ghetto

Israel, your God has given you so much.
Intelligence, wealth, influence, a sense of identity and destiny.
Why does your God not give you ability to see the likeness of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto?


Unknown said...


Hasbe said...

Israel gave up on G-d when it started out:

Ann at singing teaching in paradise said...


This machine kills fascists said...

I don't think comparing the gay hating, jew-hating (yes, I know you don't like but they HATE jews) hardline Islamic loons of Hamas in Gaza, to the jews of the Warsaw ghetto is appropriate, but I know you do.

My father saw what the Nazis did to the jews in a concentration camp in 1945 at the end of the war. Hamas would do the same. He always fully supported Israel.

It's one of the conundrums of life to me, why so many middle class fops who profess to be against fascism, hate Israel so much. Look at the odious peoples that surround it. Anyone with a history like the jews won't be dicked about by a few wannabe revolutionaries in over their heads.

DocRichard said...

Well hello TMKF.

I have been aware of the horror of the Shoah since I was able to read and look at pictures.

I understand why the Holocaust enabled the state of Israel to found itself. Can you understand why the Palestinians feel angry at the ever expanding Israeli state?

I agree that there are differences of degree between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto. Are you able to agree that there are similarities? In both, a nation is imprisoned in its own area. Yes, the Gazans get more calories than the Warsaw Jews, but they are denied many essentials. Both are under seige. In both cases they are encircled by a powerful army.

Remember that the Jews finally, understandably, turned to violence - the Uprising. It failed, just as the intifada has failed.

Yes, there are differences. Hamas provoked the IDF response with its stupid (but understandable, in terms of crude anger) rockets.

It takes two to tango, and it takes two to mess up as badly as I/P is messed up. Hamas and the Israeli Government are engaged in a solemn dance of death and destruction. Each act of violence creates another act of violence. Israel has to understand that it is beginning to look to Palestinians rather as the SS looked to Jews.

It does not have to be like this. Peace is possible. But first it is necessary for good people to understand that this is not a game that ends in win-lose. It only ends when we get win-win.

This machine kills fascists said...

You forget that initially the Jews didn't want to kill all Germans. Huge difference. Hamas hate jews dogmatically. Whether they are 'free' people or not.

When the Palestinians / Hamas stop wishing to exterminate Jews, then they we'll get somewhere.

They are fundamentalist religious bigots and deeply, deeply unpleasant. Peace will never be possible while the Islamic extremists hate the jews dogmatically. And they do. We ALL know it.

Why they garner such support from the luvvies is beyond me. Still, Israel will look after itself.

As for the SS / IDF comparison. You're a nice man but I feel you're very wrong. Very wrong. My father was interrogated by the Gestapo and encountered the SS. The IDF are nothing like the SS or Gestapo. Nothing at all.

DocRichard said...

No I did not forget it. I did not mention it because it is impossible to mention all the relevant facts in one post.

You are right, the Jews did not attack the fascists initially. The psychotic, paranoid ideology of the fascists held that the Jewish international conspiracy was attacking the Aryan people.

Hamas point to the invasion of their land as the provocation of their violence.

I agree, the Hamas Charter is absolutist, dogmatic, and uncompromising, a formula for unending violence. The best we can hope for is that the charter is a bunch of words, and that political realities will temper the actual aims of the group.

It is to be expected that Israel's various over-reactions will increase support for Hamas in Gaza.

There are fundamentalist religious bigots on both sides. We have experience of this here in Northern Ireland. Noraid supported one side against the other. However, in the interests of peace, we in the UK do not hold that against the USA. We have forgiven and forgotten it. People get tired of war. It usually takes a generation to for war to cause people to drop the simple dogmatic absolutes and adopt some realistic compromises.

You say the IDF are nothing like the SS. But neither of us know what it is like to be an Palestinian interviewed by the
IDF and or other Israeli agencies in the privacy of their own prisons.

To the Palestinians, the Israelis ARE like the Nazis, in the sense that they are their oppressors.

Look: this conflict is a complex system, with multiple lines of causalities, and multiple positive feedback loops. The question is NOT a simple binary choice of "Which cause is right, the Palestinian cause or the Israeli cause?" The question is, "How can we help reverse the process of escalation of violence?"

Part of this is for the two Governments involved, Israeli and Hamas and their supporters, to understand that their behaviour is counter productive to the interests of their people.

Another important part is to be aware of the many cross-community peace initiatives that exist.

Politicians deal in absolutes. The people deal in realities.

Hasbe said...

"I understand why the Holocaust enabled the state of Israel to found itself."

Thank-you for your tacit recognition of the information in the link. Your mind is clearly open to what is being hidden, unlike some.

The Machine says: " Look at the odious peoples that surround it."

One of the Machine's problems is that he (just guessing - I've never come across a woman who'd want to describe herself as a machine) deals in broad generalisations like this. Are All the other peoples in the MidEast really "odious"? All of them? Everything about them? Every single individual? If he thinks so, then he must be as chauvinistic as those he repudiates.

He keeps saying the Jews, the Jews. Stop dealing in such obfuscation man! There is no such thing as "The Jooos" for G-d's sake, as the link I posted makes clear. It is the secular Zionists who started this problem, so pls don't blame Haredim or religious folks.